amazing wrote:.
"i was able to get my wife and children out, and this led to my son-in-law and a close friend leaving at the same time.
so, i am among the more fortunate in that my immediate family, and non-jw friends and relatives were all there with me as i exited.
Very interesting thread that demonstrates the need to educate current JWs about how distance themselves from the Watchtower without destroying the important relationships in their lives. Someone could devote an entire web site to the topic and feature experiences from those who survived this perilous journey.
Lee
i recently read that certain patients who have damaged their brain in an accident or even had epelectic fits etc have for the first time in their life had a religious experience due to a certain region of the brain being sought of activated which deals with divine experiences or god.
some have even written in depth writings about there visions some have also claimed to be called by god so this made me think about abilities like maths,language,taste etc these are also preset into us arent they otherwise how else could learn to do these things so then are we preset to worship god.
aha so we are sought of like a computer with software programmed into us,so if so do we worship through free will or through a preprogrammed god module ????
There is recent credible research that demonstrates a genetic predisposition to spirituality in some humans. The research is based
upon studies of identical twins raised separately and is discussed in
the book, "How We Believe," which incidentally is a great read. The author is Michael Shermer who is the director/founder of the Skeptics Society.
Lee
here is a report from one of the centers participating in the phase iii .
clinical trial of hemopure - the bovine based hemoglobin blood .
substitute permitted by the watchtower society and presently in use in south africa.
Here is a report from one of the centers participating in the Phase III
clinical trial of HemoPure - the bovine based hemoglobin blood
substitute permitted by the Watchtower Society and presently in use in South Africa.
http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=bpur&script=410&layout=7&item_id=251540
having read the dialogue between and existing elder in alabama and the wt society posted on randy's site (thanks randy for this scoop), one can see that the society will not and cannot change their blood policy anytime soon.
barring some outright coup, the society will maintain the existing stand.. they have invested so much effort into this.
they have received recognition from secular quarters re their pursuit for blood-less surgeries and other blood alternatives and would appear silly if they suddenly backtracked now.
The WTS is between a rock and a hard place on the blood issue. As far as your argument is concerned, you could have tried to make the same point in May of 2000 only to see the WTS make sweeping changes a month later by permitting all blood products fractionated from red cells, white cells and platelets (plasma fractions were already permitted).
I think it is very difficult to try and forsee where the WTS is headed with their policy which is precisely why there is such a need for us to be proactive. The WTS was thoroughly exposed before the medical ethics community and soundly defeated in my view. The unreasonableness of their position is becoming widely known via published articles in various medical journals. The effect of this will not be truly known for years but my belief is that the pressure will continue to mount.
In the meantime, all we can do is try to educate others so that they can make informed, autonomous choices and continue exposing the WTS' irrational policy to all that will listen.
Lee
wt advance directive.
there is substantial discussion of this topic in a previous thread that contains the opinions, some informed - some not, regarding the validity of the directive.
i believe that a useful place to begin is by reviewing the medical literature.
anewperson:
Clearly, you are someone who appreciates straight talk. In my opinion, someone would have to cut off your head for you to be any dumber.
Lee
wt advance directive.
there is substantial discussion of this topic in a previous thread that contains the opinions, some informed - some not, regarding the validity of the directive.
i believe that a useful place to begin is by reviewing the medical literature.
“anewperson” wrote:
<Whether JWs cheerfully or reluctantly sign the anti-blood transfusion cards in the background always covers the fact that if they take a transfusion and then don't say they are sorry they did, then they are disfellowshipped. This is duress. A legal document signed under duress is invalid insofar as judges and medical personnel are concerned. However, those professionals are mostly unaware of the duress factor.>
The card is only an issue if the JW patient is unconscious. If they are transfused while unconscious, they face no judicial sanctions. Incidentally, JWs who unrepentantly accept prohibited blood products are no longer disfellowshiped but rather show by their actions that they no longer wish to be considered Jehovah’s Witnesses and have “disassociated” themselves – they effect (shunning) is the same.
AJWRB.org website hangs there in cyberspace doing a fine job for those who happen to find it there, but out in the real world are doctors and judges who do not know about the disfellowshipment duress and therefore let JWs die! Why don't you phone and write the judges and doctors?>
That is impractical for one thing but more importantly, doctors would not be receptive to that kind of approach. AJWRB medical advisors have strongly emphasized that the most effective way to reach physicians is through publications and conferences.
<We have heard nothing... N-O-T-H-I-N-G... from Wayne Rogers the President of the AJWRB in ages now. How long is Wayne's term? Is it for life or what? If it is about to expire kick him out for inaction. If it is for life and he keeps trying to choke real-world actions to death by inactivity as he has so far, then start a new anti-Watchtower blood policy website or whatever it takes and do it right this time.>
Wayne has done an outstanding job as AJWRB’s Public Affairs Representative. I know of no one, who has sacrificed more to support the cause of reform of the Watchtower’s blood policy.
<Blood is gushing, Lee. Your posting here once in a while is not true leadership. Lead or get your ownself out of the way. I appreciate what you did do, e.g. the journal articles, but since then you have sat on you hind-end. Move it.>
I’ve done my best to push AJWRB’s agenda forward as has Wayne Rogers, Dr. Osamu Muramoto, Sam Believer and dozens of others. We have worked on the preparation of a dozen or more articles in various medical journals. Sponsored exhibits at two major medical conferences. Prepared, printed and distributed tens of thousands of brochures. Responded to thousands upon thousands of emails from medical personnel as well as current and former JWs. Plus numerous other reform efforts.
If anyone who is capable wants to jump in here and do more, I’m certainly not holding them back. I sincerely doubt that you have any idea what is involved in getting an article published in a medical journal – try it sometime. We have a major article that we have been working on for over a year that will be published next month in the U.S. - another is in the pipeline.
A handful of “core” AJWRB members have borne the vast majority of the expenses associated with all of AJWRB’s activities. Members have donated their time and paid their own expenses to travel to medical conventions and help man information booths.
I could have spent an hour this evening working on an article for another medical journal but instead I responded to your comments. Probably not the best use of my time but if it motivates you or someone else to pull out your checkbook and make a donation than perhaps it wasn't a waste afterall.
Lee
wt advance directive.
there is substantial discussion of this topic in a previous thread that contains the opinions, some informed - some not, regarding the validity of the directive.
i believe that a useful place to begin is by reviewing the medical literature.
WT Advance Directive
There is substantial discussion of this topic in a previous thread that contains the opinions, some informed - some not, regarding the validity of the directive. I believe that a useful place to begin is by reviewing the medical literature.
The Western Journal of Medicine published an article that devotes an entire section to this topic. Follow the link below:
http://www.ajwrb.org/wjm/wjm.htm
and scroll down to the section:
“Ethical and legal issues of the blood card and informed refusal”
AJWRB has extensive resources available on this topic. The link below will give you a list for your research.
If you have a problem reaching this page, go to the search engine on our main page and search the site using the words: advance directive.
Lee
last night at meeting they told us to just use our blood cards from last year.
in the past they've always told us how important it was to get it signed every year so that people could see our current views as jw's.....doesn't this new arangement negate everything they've ever said in regards to this?
absolutely nuts!.
There is more to this story than meets the eye. We'll be publishing something soon. Be sure to go to our website: www.ajwrb.org
and scroll down to the bottom and subscribe to our newsletter
Lee
do you think that the jw religion is a cult?
i believe that it is, but i wanted to get other people's opinion.
This is an interesting and controversial topic. Ray Franz rejects the idea that Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult. He points to similar levels of authoritarian control exercised by other groups. It’s true that Jehovah’s Witnesses are by no means alone when the “cult” topic comes up.
I’m not sure the term is very useful anymore. It has taken on such a negative connotation and stirs up controversy. It kind of reminds me of the word “diet”. The term simply refers to what we eat but in recent decades its taken on the negative connotation of a dreaded, restrictive course of reduction.
In a classic sense, the apostles and early Christians were cult members. They followed Christ and are commonly referred to as the “Christ cult” by higher critics of the Bible.
We find similar levels of control exercised by non-religious groups like the military but there are some important differences. For instance, you are not born in to the military – you join or enlist for a set period and you can leave or be discharged with honor when the period expires.
While cults have a sinister and frequently religious connotation. They can be harmless and center on politics, business, medicine, etc.
Where does the WTS fit in? In my view, they meet most of the classic criteria for defining a cult – especially for members of the Bethel families. The criteria includes things like control of information, control of feelings and thoughts, control of behavior, control of association – forbidding discussion or reading literature of former members, etc.
I think the most important aspect is whether a group becomes destructive. In the case of Jehovah’s Witnesses its fairly clear that there are destructive elements present if the form of their policies on blood, disfellowshiping, education, and one area that is frequently overlooked – finances. (The group has hundreds of thousands of members who are financially destitute because they have devoted the vast majority of their time and resources to the Society believing that the nearness of the end precludes any need to save for retirement).
There is probably little to gain from arguing that the Watchtower Society is a cult. This expression conjures up images of Jim Jones and David Koresh. That is not the kind of “cult” that the Watchtower is. Nonetheless, the Watchtower is clearly a dangerous group that definitely employs well understood mind control and thought reform techniques.
If a Jehovah’s Witness were under the influence of mind control, how would they know?
Lee
this got me to thinking.... now that most of us have left the wts, i notice some have taken other belief systems.
some have come to a peace with their own ideas.. my question is are you involved with another religion?
has it brought you more peace or happiness?
My experience as a Jehovah’s Witness made me very skeptical in matters of faith. I felt the need to question the very foundation of my belief system. I found that when I put the Bible under the same microscope I had used to examine the Watchtower Society, I was very disappointed by the results. I think its fair to say that I felt nearly as betrayed by my faith in the Bible as I did by my faith in “Jehovah’s” organization.
I have attended a few churches in recent years and had some interesting and pointed discussions with ministers of various faiths. I think the most fascinating discussion was with a minister from a local congregational church (United Church of Christ). A very informed and enlightened individual, in my opinion, who had an exceptional grasp of higher criticism of the Bible but was quick to point out that these were matters for debate and discussion at seminaries – not in the local church.
I guess that my exploration of these kinds of issues left me wondering about the purpose of practicing Christianity in a traditional sense. I attended a number of meetings at a local Unitarian Universalist Church. I even gave a lecture there once regarding the Jehovah’s Witnesses and their views on blood. They asked me to join but it never felt right. In fact, it didn’t feel like a church or worship service at all – more like a college lecture on religion. I must say, however, that the U.U’s have a safe environment for former Jehovah’s Witnesses to heal from their experience with the Watchtower Society.
Today I would call myself a Fideist – one who believes in God because he finds it comforting yet acknowledges that there is no established factual basis for his belief. Perhaps that is the whole point of faith. I am nonetheless awed by that which I can observe, deeply moved by the mystery of life and compelled to thank God for the good things in my life and give him glory for his works. I ask nothing of God because it seems clear to me that God will not intervene in the affairs of mankind.
I find it nearly impossible to abandon my Christian heritage. I no longer see Jesus Christ as the “Word” of God but I maintain my deep respect and admiration for his teachings and the higher principles of Christianity. I consider myself a liberal Christian – one who is more interested in the religion of Jesus than the religion about Jesus. I also sense that Jesus had some unique vision or insight into the “Kingdom of God”, I seek that vision.
I will still find my way into a Kingdom Hall or convention from time to time. I miss a number of my Jehovah’s Witness friends and acquaintances but I can only force myself to spend brief periods in association with them. I feel no need or desire to “burst their bubble”. The information is out there if they want to find it.
Over the holiday, my wife and I attended a play at a large local Church. I must admit that I was utterly swept away by the rush of emotion I experienced at different points of the presentation that touched on Christian themes. In retrospect, I feel like the victim of a cruel hoax – emotional and spiritual rape seems to describe the feeling pretty well.
In all honesty, I did some of this to myself by not leaving well enough alone. However, were it not for the dysfunctional belief system I was raised in, I doubt that I would have ever opened Pandora’s box. In hindsight, I wish that upon leaving, I would have "bit the bullet" and got my family involved with some mainstream Protestant church like the U.C.C. or the Methodists. Even if I had to fake it, it would have probably been the best move for my children and eventually their children. These groups have benign belief systems and authority structures and can provide the sense of community and support that most of us need – especially when we are young.
So, for the time being I am content to call myself a dissident Jehovah’s Witness partly to irritate the WTS at least as much as they have irritated me but primarily to work as an advocate for reform of their blood policy.
Lee
